Talk:House Florent
Family tree Is it too early to start working on a family tree template for the Florents? They are a big house and most of the primary members haven't actually been introduced yet.--The Dragon Demands 20:41, June 9, 2012 (UTC) : yes, its too early and we don't know which Florents will be featured or mentioned. I just added Melessa because of the indirect mention Samwell makes of her.--Gonzalo84 20:43, June 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Yes, I agree with both decisions.--The Dragon Demands 20:47, June 9, 2012 (UTC) ::Seconded, it would be very sparse at present. Worth considering though and possibly worth revisiting next year.--Opark 77 21:15, June 9, 2012 (UTC) Axell update I know no actual trees and I get it and don't want to be "admins are to be ignored" type of contributor, but just a broad and simple sketch without templates as a compromise since it's much easier to just show. *Axell is tricky since he is both called Lord Florent and Ser Axell in the same episode. But is anybody really disagreeing that he is a Lord and head of House Florent therefore the senior male-line descendant of House Florent. If he is a Lord, he can't an uncle (who is the first-born son) also be alive. Seems like Alester Florent is joining the long list of character that the show isn't using or maybe a better way to put it is that he was merged into Lord Axell Florent. The ones to exclude just from the family tree. *Selyse's parents. We don't know how TV continuity has changed the book continuity by the merger of her uncles into just Selyse's brother. *Rylene Florent is Shireen's cousin yet the family tree currently shows her as her great-aunt. It's kind of hard to square how you can be both. I'm not questioning that how Rylene is related in the books and should for certain be mentioned in in the books section, but the books have their own wiki and the main section should take what the show says as the uncomplicated truth. I know there are times when that the show contradicts itself, but Book Rylene being Shireen's great aunt and TV Rylene being a cousin from unsure parents doesn't seem like one. *Melessa Tarly is a mentioned just as Samwell talks about his mother, but he or anybody else has said not anything about her. I feel like there would be too much fanfic leaps to make the TV continuity square up with the book continuity. For certain mention the cousin connection in the in the books section, but just skip it in the tree since Axell and Alester being merged and made Selyse's brother again makes how everybody else is related a bit up in the air. I wouldn't be writing this out if it wasn't what I thought was correct, but I am not implying this is the sole way that all of this must be done and you're an idiot if you disagree by any means and hope it isn't inferred that way. I'd love to be questioned, have to clarify/defend ideas I've put out and have my mind changed by admins or follow newcomers. Ardilaun (talk) 02:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC) These are great points; wanted to give you a headsup that I am not ignoring your well detailed post. Juggling IRL work at the moment - this is on the "to do" list.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 03:13, April 22, 2014 (UTC) There's no honest doubt that the code writing for them is rather tedious and time can be spend on bigger issues for the GoT Wiki. I tried typing it out if you like it? Ardilaun (talk) 19:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC) |STAN= |SELY= |IMRY= }} }} First Cousins Would anybody be oppose to me switching "first cousin" on how Melessa Tarly is related to Selyse, Imry and Axell to just "kinswoman" and vice versa? Seems neutral and excluding the in the books section. Ardilaun (talk) 19:46, April 22, 2014 (UTC) :Yes I would oppose it. We will assume it is the same relationship as in the books until stated to be otherwise. ::It has been stated otherwise. Axell Florent was Selyse's uncle and Melessa's father is burnt at Dragonstone. If that relationship has been shown to be different, it puts the other ones based on those relationship up in the air too. Ardilaun (talk) 00:36, May 3, 2014 (UTC) To reiterate: I am aware of and indeed agree with your concerns, but the TV show is handling House Florent so confusingly that it requires my full attention to figure out how the TV-Florent tree has been changed from the book-Florents. I'm studying for end-of-semester language tests at present and just skimming through stuff on here. I know that might not be very consoling but it's better than leaving no response at all, apparently ignoring you, and then popping up again two weeks from now. It's not as if the Florents are going anywhere...also, the other reason I'm slow to react on this, as well as the Freys, is because I seriously hope that the remaining seven episodes of this season will provide new information to clear this up...after which we have another 10 months with no new information. Why get into a debate over the family tree now, when next episode might fix it? This attitude is borne of past experience: back in Season 3, episode 3, Robb Stark sarcastically said that Martyn Lannister was Tywin's father's brothers grandsons, etc. This led to major debate over whether they were changed from simply being his nephews in the TV continuity. Only two weeks later, episode 5 confirmed that they actually were his nephews, and he was being sarcastic. So they might mention more about House Florent and the Freys before this season is over -- which is why I am hesitant to make final decisions about their TV continuity family tree until we've finished Season 4. Anything we do in the next 7 weeks will be provisional.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:45, April 22, 2014 (UTC) :Only from dialogue from the show (which oddly enough are not the same in the books), the audience knows that Selyse has dead brother named Axell and either a niece or more distant cousin named Rylene since "Cousin Rylene" doesn't automatically mean first cousin. Neither of those things are currently shown on House Florent tree which just seems odd. :With your example from S3 not applying to House Florent is that it was the TV show itself contradicting itself as oppose to contradicting the book continuity. Also Martyn & Willem Lannister were mentioned and then came back in another episode while Lord Axell is dead and not coming back. Things are changed all the time prior to the season finale so I don't know why this one. :You're got your thesis stuff (is your thesis going to be posted online?) so I'm not really rushing or anything, but just interested in this kind of stuff.Ardilaun (talk) 00:36, May 3, 2014 (UTC) Sigil In the article it is mentioned that "The Florent sigil is a red gold fox's head encircled by lapis lazuli flowers." But it's not, it should be "A red gold fox on ermine", as in infobox. Can you fix it, please? --SvetlanaPtrv Обсуждение 17:59, October 27, 2013 (UTC) :The books give conflicting reports: apparently, it's a red-gold fox surrounded by lapis lazuli flowers, all of which is on an ermine background. In the book version, that is: the TV version dropped the lapis lazuli flowers.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:32, October 27, 2013 (UTC) Siblings I guess the "priority" (it was term TDD used that seems helpful) is who has been cast with a flesh and blood actor and seen on screen and showing those people on the family tree. That would be Axell, Imry and Selyse (and Selyse's husband and daughter). I don't think anybody has a real issue making Axell a sibling of Selyse and Imry. Maybe order of how to show them. I was thinking first Axell then Selyse (and her family) and then Imry. The second thing is Melessa Tarly being shown on the tree. I say drop her until more confirmation on how she's related to Selyse (who is the main Florent so far on the TV show). It isn't as if not showing her on the tree means that Melessa Tarly isn't related to Selyse in the way as the book series and she is on the TV show, but showing makes it more definite. It's interesting in the books that Melessa and Selyse are first cousins and totally in favour of keeping that in "in the book section." It's just that Selyse's brother Axell was "Lord Florent," it's different from what the book series do and there is probably a ripple effect on the other Florent familial relations to each other. Again, if no changes are made, no sweat. Ardilaun (talk) 14:57, September 2, 2014 (UTC) :The TV-Florent family tree is all jumbled up. This is on my "list of questions we need the writers to clarify". Oddly I think of it as a combined problem focused on Shireen Baratheon, I call it "the Shireen problem" in my head. Two separate family tree issues, that is: how did the Baratheons intermarry with the Targaryens if Jaehaerys II was cut from the TV continuity? And, what is the TV-Florent family tree? Shireen is half Baratheon and half Florent, so the whole problem becomes condensed/fixated around a single character. I don't know what we should do other than to keep vaguely pursuing writer Q&A. I have some vague hope that the new WotW.com fansite (really the old WiC.net writing staff, all of them) will get a new Bryan Cogman Q&A going in the near future - I'm already in e-mail contact with their site and I'm going to try to pass along questions to them when the time comes, but I can only hope that will produce results (there's also the possibility that the TV writers honestly didn't think through the repercussions of these changes).--The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:29, September 2, 2014 (UTC) ::I know there is the example of Robb Stark and Edmure Tully differing descriptions on how Willem and Martyn Lannister were related to Tywin Lannister, but that was an internal conflict within the show that differs from here. Plus Lord Axell himself says to Shireen as he is about to die, "I'm your brother!" which is differ than other people describing his relation to Selyse. The Wiki goes by the show otherwise there would be a bunch more Florent on this tree. I've been the only person to mention that Axell ought to be show as Selyse's brother. And "Cousin Rylene" was just a mention in a book appendix so I just take the show at its word that the writers decided to just Rylene's name for a cousin of Shireen rather then her great-aunt for a light and cute nameday joke. Seems simple enough and just drop Rylene from the template à la Alton Lannister not being on House Lannister family tree templates. ::I get that Melessa is more hard to shallow then changes to Axell and Rylene. I do kind of hope it's addressed. I'm more in favour of dropping Melessa and her husband and sons since it seem more neutral in that not showing them doesn't mean 100% for certain that she isn't related the way to Selyse in the show cannon as she is in the book cannon especially if Selyse's brother is the head of House Florent which changes things from Melessa's father being that in the book series, but TDD seems to be more strong in favour of keeping it (important to show that major character Samwell Tarly has a Florent connection and all) and it isn't something that bothers me that much, but still more in favour of dropping her until more information comes. Ardilaun (talk) 15:49, September 6, 2014 (UTC) :::I think the whole Florent family tree is messed up, and I fear that trying to make a new family tree based on this will only encourage an error - if they consciously moved family members around, fine. What worries me is that they weren't even thinking when they called them "cousin" instead of "aunt", or "uncle" instead of "brother" etc. I hold out vague hope that a writer Q&A might be able to address this in coming months (TitanCon is coming up this week in Belfast). :::I do, however, promise that if we have no god-damned answers by the Season 5 premiere, we'll have to actually acknowledge the change and rewrite the family tree. By "Season 5 premiere" I mean the first episode -- I strongly suspect (or hope) that the first episode or two will have Shireen meeting Samwell, and some sort of on-screen mention of "our mothers are both from House Florent" - and further attention devoted to it in the Viewer's Guide family tree. If they dodge the issue entirely in the first two episodes, I'm going to give up and we'll just cobble together what we can from their sporadic and conflicting statements. Crud. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 21:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::Mormont in is in the category section. Templates for Houses Arryn, Blackfyre, Durrandon, Martell, Stokeworth, Tarth, Tarly, Targaryen (Dance of Dragon Era) and the Direwolves have the incorrect name in the category at the bottom. ::::Also just randomly, typing at the top and at the bottom will automatically center the family tree on whatever article it appears on in the wiki (especially nicer on those tree with few members and a lot | | | | vertical bars in them).Ardilaun (talk) 23:13, September 6, 2014 (UTC) Update Remember to wait until after the fifth season premiere episode to revisit all of this. First generation would be Stannis Baratheon-–m.–-Selyse Florent then Axell Florent then Imry Florent as siblings and second generation three stillborn sons and then Shireen Baratheon. Dropping the generation before Selyse and her brothers as well as Rylene Florent and Melessa Florent just from the House Template, but more explicit in the connection in the In the books sections? Ardilaun (talk) 22:48, April 13, 2015 (UTC) :Don't be sarcastic. :Actually I tabled the issue but hadn't forgotten about it: my real hope is that we're going to get more info in Season 5 which will finally try to make sense of the Florent family tree. Reports say Shireen gets more than a few scenes in episodes 2, 3, and 4 of Season 5, and I'm hoping that when they do they explain how she and Samwell are interrelated through being Florents. So I'm hoping for answers that way.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:59, April 14, 2015 (UTC) ::I wasn't being sarcastic. The HBO Viewer Guide has been changed for Season 5 and nothing more about House Florent or House Tarly. I hear you that it would be great if there was something to established how or even if TV Samwell's mother and TV Selyse are related, but there's nothing and I'm not really holding my breath for it (although I won't be upset at all if I'm wrong about that). Still it's been months waiting on this update and if you want to see what happens in the next episode or two, it doesn't bother to wait some more. Ardilaun (talk) 21:46, April 16, 2015 (UTC) I hope the Season 5 Histories & Lore straighten this out but they probably won't. This is officially one of the major questions which is going to be on my updated "List of major questions for the TV writers". Crud.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:44, November 22, 2015 (UTC) House Florent template Can you switch template House Florent for this? And added Talla Tarly if you can. | ALESTERF= | MELARAF= | UNKNOWNLADYFLORENT= | RYLENEF= |}} | RANDYLLTARLY= |JOANN= | SELYSEF= |STANNISB= |AXEL= | IMRYF= }} |DICKONT= |THREESTILLBORNSONS= |SHIREENB= |}} Pawel10s 00:29, August 6, 2016 (UTC) It's already on my list to do this weekend! Regards, Admin Ser Shield McShield (talk) 00:36, August 6, 2016 (UTC) House Florent - the Final Conclusion I've been putting this off for three years but it's time to make an official conclusion...even if that official conclusion is in fact "the writers just plain didn't keep track and this is in limbo". The problem is that in the earlier TV seasons, through Season 4 when we tabled this....we assumed that the TV writers were competent and keeping track of changes to the lore. Keeping logical track the same way that we do, and we were just trying to.....discern what "official change" they made. Always thinking in the backs of our minds that they just weren't being very communicative. Season 5 onwards (flip flopping between does Ellaria have four or five daughters?)...the reality sets in that they just weren't keeping track of this. The facts are these: *In the books, first generation of Florents are sibling set of five: Alester, Axell, Ryam, Colin, Rylene. *Alester is Melessa's father, and Ryam is Selyse and Imry's father - establishing a nifty blood relationship between Samwell Tarly and Shireen Baratheon. Also another brother, Erren. *Colin is father of Delena mother of Edric Storm - this isn't mentioned in the TV show at all and thus not important to our needs. *In the book, Stannis burns Alester for offering surrender behind his back (selling out Shireen to marry Tommen) and doing it behind his back. *Thus the TV version, instead of burning Selyse's uncle Alester, it's her uncle Axell, and Axell is changed to a brother. The issues facing us are Rylene and Axell. Other than her mere existence, Rylene isn't remotely important. She got name-dropped by Davos exactly once, saying she's Shireen's "cousin" when she's really her great-aunt -- and it's such a brief mention we can wave that aside as "he meant kinsman", point out the mistake in the article -- it's doubtful the TV writers meant it as a thought-out change, and it's not likely to come up again. We point this out in the notes. Is anyone here really going to defend "hey, put back in cousin Rylene as part of the separate TV continuity?....or at least...it's a choice between list her as in the books or cut it out of the family tree entirely. I choose to see this as a one-off dialogue mistake because Davos could plausibly be speaking loosely. But the bigger issue is Axell, that they burn alive and very prominently have say he's Selyse's brother in a way we just can't avoid. This is an official change - who knows why, simplification? Wish they kept notes. We can't avoid that, it's a TV change. Somehow I kept hoping Cogman would come out with some grand official explanation later. By now...I've lost faith in them. Sort of what happened, and I know I'm putting more thought into this than they did.... ...is that they swapped burning Selyse's uncle Alester for burning her uncle Axell....fine....and then it was sort of like "rather than burning her uncle, let's burn her other brother Erren". A needless jumbling. Still, as this has been hanging over our heads for so long, the official conclusion is that Rylene we can get away with listing as a great aunt in family trees, not a cousin, but there's no possible way on-screen character Axell stated to be her brother can be anything but that. Basically the family tree will be what it has already been updated to be now: Sometimes we "fill in the blanks" on family trees by listing names not yet known in the books (It's not worth the effort to list Rickard Stark's wife as "unknown" - in a charge we can fudge it by listing it as "Lyarra Stark", but not including that in actual article content like bulleted lists or actual named articles). Moving bottom to top, third level makes sense: the Tarly children and Shireen. Second level, Randyll/Melessa, Stannis/Selyse. Then Imry as Selyse's brother. And then, Axell as Selyse's other brother (straightforward enough change). First level, the only 3 Florents out of 5 that we need are Alester (and wife), Ryam (and wife), both as parents of Melessa and Selyse respectively.....and then Rylene. Again, because Rylene is so minor, doesn't appear on screen, Davos could be speaking vaguely, and the writers just aren't paying attention, that it's not enough to merit removing it. And if she was a "cousin" we wouldn't know where to even put her in this, so it's a choice between including at all or removal. We include until proven otherwise by future mention (which is utterly doubtful). This is the final conclusion, until new information appears - and we're not waiting for new information. It's this until proven otherwise. The current family tree as developed by Ser Shield McShield is the Occam's Razor, most probable best fit solution we can come up with. Please make all of the appropriate updates to relevant articles - i.e. in Axell Florent article describe him as "Selyse's brother", but then explain these changes in the "in the books' section. Dear god this has been a weight on my mind for years. Now it is done. The freedom of realizing "there's nothing to puzzle out, the TV writers just plain didn't think this through."--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:45, June 13, 2017 (UTC) Sounds good. One question: Should Symun Fossoway be added as bethored to Talla Tarly? Regards, Ser Shield McShield (talk) 21:08, June 13, 2017 (UTC)